Thanks.
Can I get you anything? Coffee? Tea? Juice? Scotch?
Scotch?
Just kidding.
A coffee would be good. Thanks.
I gather you have some questions about the United Church.
Yeah! I guess I wanted to check out Sunday School first of all. I'd like my kids to learn a little about God.
Most congregations in the United Church have Sunday Schools. In my own congregation there are plenty of young families with lots of children. And there's church school for everyone from the tiny babies to teenagers.
Sunday School for babies?
Sure. Babies begin to learn about God by being cuddled and loved. We don't teach them lessons from books or anything, but we try to make them feel loved and appreciated. That's lesson number one for all of us.
That we're loved and appreciated?
Sure. But you were asking about Sunday Schools. There are some congregations in the United Church with very small, struggling Sunday Schools. They really need young couples like you to join and stir things up a little. Usually, once a few people begin to get involved, they tell their friends and the next thing you know, there's a lively church going.
Customer satisfaction, eh?
Well, yes, but I don't think of them as customers. In the United Church, it's the members who make or break the church. If they get excited and involved, then things happen. If they don't, then the thing dies.
I thought it was up to the minister.
Heck, no! The minister is the coach. But it's the people in the church who are the team. The coach is important, but the coach can't play the game. If the team get's excited and starts enjoying the game, they may not win all the time but they'll have a lot of fun playing.
I thought the minister was the boss, the one who ran the church.
There are a few clergy like that, who try and run the whole show. But they're a dying breed. Most clergy in the United Church know that top-down leadership doesn't really work anymore. People simply get fed up and leave.
I haven't been to church for awhile. Maybe you can tell. But I was wondering. Do you have to sign a paper, or agree to believe in the Bible or things like that?
You've asked me a bunch of questions there. Have another cup of coffee, and I'll try and answer them as best I can. But I should say that the best way to learn about the church is to become a part of it. What you get from me is my point of view, and not everybody's going to agree with me.
So? Tell me what you think.
First of all, no. You don't have to sign a paper. The United Church is what's called a "non-creedal" church. That means we don't set down on paper that you have to believe this, and you can't believe that. When you boil it right down, it's between you and God. I can tell you what I believe, but I can't tell you what you should believe.
What do you believe?
First of all, I believe in a God of love. I don't believe in some grandfather in the sky who is ready to zap people if they do something wrong. I believe a lot of things about God and Jesus and the Bible, but the one piece that I couldn't give up, no matter what, is that God loves me and you and the whole creation.
If God loves us, then why do people get hurt? Why do we have earthquakes and disease and mad people shooting each other?
You said you had children?
Yeah.
So do I. Now when my kids were small, we used to have a big old apple tree in the back yard. They would climb on that tree, and I would sit there on a lawn chair watching them, worrying about whether they would fall. Sometimes they did. If those were your kids, would you let them climb the tree?
I guess so. How else are they going to learn to handle their bodies?
Exactly. God is like the the very best parent we can imagine. God wants us to learn and mature and develop, just like you want your kids to learn and mature and develop. You could keep your kids home in a sealed box so they would never mess up, but they wouldn't grow either. If we want our kids to grow, we've got to let them take risks. No risks, no growth.
So you're saying that God made the world as a kind of training camp, so we could grow up and become more responsible. But what about those preachers on TV who keep asking God to jump in and cure people?
I have very little patience with that kind of an idea. What kind of a God would jump in and make things right for someone who knows how to flatter and cajole, but doesn't make things right for the refugee child who doesn't know the proper words or have some high-priced evangelist to pray for them? I couldn't love a God like that. Could you?
I guess not. But do you mean praying doesn't do any good?
Of course it does. But when one of your kids comes in wanting special privledges that you can't give your other children, are you going to say "yes?" Of course you want your kids to come and talk with you. You listen hard to what your children say. But you don't cave in to the child who can manipulate you most easily. If as parents, we want to play fair, then God surely wants to be fair too? If we as parents have to allow our kids to make their own mistakes and get into trouble, then surely God is going to allow humanity to do the same. That's why we're in such a mess, because God gave us freedom. Having freedom means we have freedom to mess up. Having freedom means we have to get ourselves out of our own messes.
So what good does praying do?
What good does talking with your children do?
It helps build the relationship. Besides I love my kids, and I like it when they come and want to talk with me or play with me or whatever. And I suppose you're going to tell me that God wants the same kind of thing from us.
Bingo!
I always thought praying was more like going to the top man in a big company, or Prime Minister, or something.
Some people thing of God that way. The Judge. The policeman. The enforcer. I think of God as the very best parent I can imagine.
You keep talking about a "parent." That could be either a mother or father.
Traditionally, people have talked about God as father, and that's fine. If you can imagine a good, kind, caring and loving father, then think of God as father. But my mother was much more caring and nurturing and warm than my father, so I find it helpful to think of God as a mother. Sometimes I think of God as my best friend. In biblical days they often thought of God as a shepherd, but since I don't have much experience along those lines, that metaphor doesn't turn my crank. I don't think God really cares what kind of metaphor you use, as long as there's a good strong relationship.
I don't know. The whole thing sounds a bit wishy-washy. Aren't there any rules?
Yes. But think of your kids again. When they were really tiny you said, "Stay off the street." "Don't hit your brother." "Don't shove beans up your nose." When they got older, they began to understand why you said those things, and then they don't need the rules anymore. You've got to have rules, but its good to have as few rules as possible. It's far better to have caring relationships with people.
You mean the Golden Rule. Do unto others the way you would have them do unto you.
No, the Golden Rule is obsolete. You and I are different people. So if I do unto you the way I want you to do unto me, that satisfies my need, but not yours. I've got to do unto you the way you want me to do unto you. In other words, I need to treat you as an individual. I love Mennonite sausages but they might give you gas. So I don't feed you Mennonite sausages just because they agree with me.
We live in a very pluralistic world. Take a look next time you're downtown in one of the major cities. The Toronto subway for instance. You find people of all races and nationalities and colors and religions and traditions and beliefs. If we're going to live together without slitting each other's throats, we're going to have to learn a little about each other. We've got to learn to respect each other. I can't treat them the way I want to be treated. And they can't treat me the way they want to be treated. We've got to get to know each other enough so we respect each other and get inside each other's heads a bit.
Didn't Jesus say something about loving your neighbor?
That's right. Jesus asked us to love our neighbor as ourselves. If you check out the story in the Bible, where he used that phrase, he had just told a story about a person from a minority group that the folks who heard the story didn't like. Jesus was asking us to love people we don't like very much. But when you love somebody, you try to understand them. You want to know what makes them tick. It's hard to love someone just on general principles. You've got to know someone to love them.
Doesn't the United Church have any rules? Do they ever kick anybody out of the church?
Nobody's ever been kicked out of the United Church. That's not to say that when people in a congregation get into a fight that somebody hasn't said, "Get out of here! Go somewhere else!" But nobody, anywhere, has a right to kick somebody out of the United Church, no matter what they may have done or said. Clergy have been told they can't be clergy anymore, but they're still members of the church.
But you must have some rules.
Like what for instance?
Like, you can't smoke or drink or take drugs or sleep around?
Smoking can kill you and too much drinking can ruin your life and sleeping around abuses people, and the church has said all those things. But the church isn't a police officer. More often, the church is the place people go after they've half destroyed themselves with that kind of living.
Can I change the subject a little?
Sure.
What do they do in a United Church on Sunday morning anyway. I'd like to go, but I don't really know what to wear or how to act. I have an aunt who says women have to wear hats in church.
Your aunt hasn't been to church for a long time. In our congregation you'll find everything from blue jeans and sweat shirts to three-piece suits and fancy hats. Wear whatever you want. There is no dress code, believe me. I suppose if you came bare naked people might raise their eyebrows a bit.
How to act? Don't act. Just be yourself. There's not a lot of ceremony and ritual in the United Church. Just come in, sit down anywhere you like because there are no reserved seats. Stand up and when people stand and sit when they sit.
I thought it was pretty formal, with a lot of kneeling and chanting and stuff like that.
We only kneel for very rare occassions like when we're ordaining a minister, and then it's only the one being ordained who kneels. Most services are very informal, though there are a few United Churches around where things are pretty stuffy. We sing hymns, and you probably won't know the tune, but then half the others don't know the tune either. Fake it. Read the words as the others sing.
Let's face it, many of the people in the United Church didn't grow up in the church. They're new too. They don't know the traditions either.
Do you have to close your eyes when people pray?
No. In fact, some of the prayers are printed in the little leaflet they give you. It's hard to close you're eyes when you're reading. Praying doesn't have much to do with closing your eyes or folding your hands or kneeling or any of that stuff. Praying is simply a conversation with God. If closing your eyes helps you concentrate, well fine. Some people like to look at a candle. Some just stare vacantly. It's what's happening in your mind and heart that's important.
I've run into some church people that seem to use a lot of words like "Jesus" and "Hallalujah" and "Yes, Lord." Do you have to talk like that?
No. Please don't do that. People in the United Church will look at you as if you've fallen out of a tree. United Church people hardly ever use religious words, which isn't necessarily a compliment. We really should learn how to talk about what we believe a bit better than we do. But we could learn to do that in ordinary language. We don't need to try and impress people with how holy we are.
Actually, we thought we might like our kids baptized.
Why?
Well, I'm not really sure. It's just that we figure there's got to be more to life than just the rat race. Even if you win the rat race, you're still a rat. And we want to be more than that. We want our kids to be more than that.
And that's a really good place to start. Yes, you can have your children baptized. But we take baptism very seriously in the United Church. As parents, you make some pretty heavy-duty promises when you have your children baptized.
Like what?
Well, for starters, you usually have at least one meeting with the minister just to talk about those promises. In some congregations, they have a series of meetings where they talk about what baptism means. You'll be asked to raise your child as a Christian. That involves far more than just being nice to each other.
I don't know.
You look worried.
Does the minister ask you a whole bunch of personal questions? I mean, I've done a few things I'm not too proud of.
The minister is probably far more interested in the future than in the past. Lots of us have messed up. When you bring a child for baptism, or when you join the church yourself, you're making an investment in the future of yourself and your family.
That's what I meant to ask. I was baptized in another denomination. My spouse wasn't baptized at all. Do we have to join the United Church to have our children baptized?
When you were baptized, or when your children are baptized, they are welcomed into the Christian church. The whole Christian church, which includes all denominations. Think of it this way. Nobody is going to get legalistic about things. But when you have your children baptized, you promise to provide a Christian home for them. What better way to do that, then to make some committments for your own life? It's the example you set for your children that's important. If you take your faith seriously, your children are likely to. If your faith is not really important to you, it won't be for your kids either.
Do we have to go to church every Sunday?
If you're asking, do we keep attendance, then no. We don't keep track of how regularly you go to church. But your children will know. If you want a Christian faith to be important to your kids, it's got to be important to you. If you faith is important to you, you'll want to go to church regularly.
What about money?
What about it?
Somebody said the church is always asking for money.
Of course. There's the church building to pay for. Insurance. Maintanance. The minister can't live on air. Even more importantly, the church is forever trying to help people. The church keeps trying to get a fair deal for people who are being pushed down, and it keeps trying to help those who are hurting. There's never enough money to do all the things that need doing. Part of the church's job is to keep people like you and me aware of the need, and to keep us involved in the struggle for justice and a fair deal for people. So yes, the church is always asking for money so that you and I have a chance to give. That's part of its job.
I didn't expect you to say that. I expected you to tell me, "no", it isn't true. The church doesn't really care about your money.
The church doesn't care about your money. The church cares about you and how you live your life and what you think is important. What you do with your money is one of the ways you act out what you believe. If you really care about other people, you'll want to give as much of your money as you can to help them.
And by the way, the church isn't always asking for money, although the offering plate is passed around every Sunday. But you don't need to put any money on it. The important thing isn't what you do with your money. The important thing is what you do with your life.
Ouch! That's pretty heavy.
Exactly. You can't be a little bit Christian any more than you can be a little bit pregnant. Being a Christian means you bet your life on the idea that there is a God who loves you and cares about you and calls you to live that life as creatively and beautifully and as lovingly as you can. You're right. That's heavy.
Maybe I should forget the whole business.
Maybe you should.
But life has got to have more meaning than just flailing around for a few years and then dying. But I don't like the idea of being, you know, all sweet and good and never taking a drink or saying anything bad or having any fun.
Hold it. Who said anything about that. If that's your idea of Christianity than Jesus wasn't a Christian. He wasn't all sweetness and light, he took a drink, and he had a wonderful time. Christianity means having it all.
I don't get it.
I know. And trying to explain it in a few words just isn't working. In fact, it really isn't something you can explain at all. It's a little like falling in love. They only way you know what that's like is by falling in love. So go to church for awhile. Go to some of the classes they have where they learn about the Christian faith. Do some serious thinking and reading and talking with people. Then make up your mind.